Ha, ha, just playin'. ^_^ I think you're right about the idea that pretty much everyone agrees on certain things that are the critical things for life and a decent life at that. I've been talking about this too, for a couple of years, but not very very recently, so maybe I'll do a post around this idea. I do agree that what we choose to FOCUS on is a critical part of coming together. It always has been, no?
I read you r piece three times thinking about how to constructively comment. Here goes.
Where to start…. how about, we agree and disagree? It is one thing to preach to the choir of curious minds who can rotate shapes and juggle two realities at the same time before settling on a preferred one, it is another to change the hearts and minds of those so entrenched they can’t even see the sky any longer.
This message of “let’s seek agreement, to end division” has been flown up the flagpole many times. I agree that there needs to be more conversations, more debates, more acceptance of differing perspective. But that perception cannot be a two-way mirror, but rather an open sash where the breeze can blow both ways. These days that is rarely the case.
Another problem lies in the reciprocation of the conversations. It is one thing to have a rational discussion with rational people, and whether consensus is reached or not, at least different views can be talked about. That’s all great, until the listening stops, the rationality stops, even the sophist consideration of an opposing viewpoint becomes imaginary. Then the division sets in and becomes more deeply entrenched.
The other problem is there are things, that are right and wrong. There is a reason for discernment and making choices. No amount of sophistry can make some of the more recent batshit crazy ideas seem even vaguely palatable.
I agree we need to take the high road and have conversations, especially with those we disagree with. I also know that appeasement, or changing the topic (ie narrative) is temporary at best and perceived as childlike.
The other glaring but disguised issue is the level of bureaucratic and “journalistic” corruption and collusion to spin up the citizenry into breaking themselves down (most likely to be more controllable). You mentioned, “Food. A decent job. A decent place to live. Happiness. Family. Friends. Freedom to do what I want. Personal health (and the ability to make their own health choices). The ability to travel. The ability to worship or not to worship. The ability to choose their own peer group. Finding love.” Every one of these have become issues of division, because, of government intervention, control and regulation. If we could agree on at least some of these issues, or at least live and let live, then we could fight the real enemy (government largesse).
I agree in principle, but I just can’t get this to work in practice. Covid is such an all consuming topic that it’s almost impossible for it not to come up. Sure, I could talk about the weather or whatever but I’m just not interested in these trivialities. Like you said, everyone can feel that something is very wrong. It’s always lurking right beneath the surface.
I feel like a religious zealot — I have to get people to see what is going and, much more importantly, *take concrete steps to avoid the impending catastrophe*. Like Word Herder, I want *action*. If that costs me some relationships, then so be it.
Such a great Floyd album and fantastic song. Post Roger Waters era, and David Gilmore is fully in control. Such a strangely underrated musician, Gilmore. His guitar and voice during his prime are so absolutely haunting and unique.
I thought we were going to create a parallel society and just leave those folks alone who have the strange ideas. Maybe I missed a post or two.
On the other hand, I agree that engaging someone over one of their trigger point topics is not beneficial to anyone but finding a concerning issue we have in common could help build a workable relationship (that I'll ignore in my parallel society ; )
BTW I had never heard of The Division Bell album before reading your post. I listened to it online. today. It sounds so damned depressing, I'm sorry it is playing in your head.
Agree we definitely need to unite and it’s a difficult problem. I do believe that posing questions is the way to go. It’s no use telling people “facts”. That’s just preachy. But asking questions like “have you seen X?” “Have you noticed X?” are the way to get people asking their own questions. People need to discover things for themselves especially when you are asking them to question things that they’ve probably blindly believed their whole lives.
Also I have the pink vinyl edition of Dark Side of the Moon even though I no longer own a record player. Classic.
Stop This Ringing!
Nope, you're WRONG.
Ha, ha, just playin'. ^_^ I think you're right about the idea that pretty much everyone agrees on certain things that are the critical things for life and a decent life at that. I've been talking about this too, for a couple of years, but not very very recently, so maybe I'll do a post around this idea. I do agree that what we choose to FOCUS on is a critical part of coming together. It always has been, no?
Good post, brother man. xo
I read you r piece three times thinking about how to constructively comment. Here goes.
Where to start…. how about, we agree and disagree? It is one thing to preach to the choir of curious minds who can rotate shapes and juggle two realities at the same time before settling on a preferred one, it is another to change the hearts and minds of those so entrenched they can’t even see the sky any longer.
This message of “let’s seek agreement, to end division” has been flown up the flagpole many times. I agree that there needs to be more conversations, more debates, more acceptance of differing perspective. But that perception cannot be a two-way mirror, but rather an open sash where the breeze can blow both ways. These days that is rarely the case.
Another problem lies in the reciprocation of the conversations. It is one thing to have a rational discussion with rational people, and whether consensus is reached or not, at least different views can be talked about. That’s all great, until the listening stops, the rationality stops, even the sophist consideration of an opposing viewpoint becomes imaginary. Then the division sets in and becomes more deeply entrenched.
The other problem is there are things, that are right and wrong. There is a reason for discernment and making choices. No amount of sophistry can make some of the more recent batshit crazy ideas seem even vaguely palatable.
I agree we need to take the high road and have conversations, especially with those we disagree with. I also know that appeasement, or changing the topic (ie narrative) is temporary at best and perceived as childlike.
The other glaring but disguised issue is the level of bureaucratic and “journalistic” corruption and collusion to spin up the citizenry into breaking themselves down (most likely to be more controllable). You mentioned, “Food. A decent job. A decent place to live. Happiness. Family. Friends. Freedom to do what I want. Personal health (and the ability to make their own health choices). The ability to travel. The ability to worship or not to worship. The ability to choose their own peer group. Finding love.” Every one of these have become issues of division, because, of government intervention, control and regulation. If we could agree on at least some of these issues, or at least live and let live, then we could fight the real enemy (government largesse).
“You simply have to turn your back on a culture that has gone sterile and dead and get with the program of a living world and the imagination.”
- Terence McKenna
I agree in principle, but I just can’t get this to work in practice. Covid is such an all consuming topic that it’s almost impossible for it not to come up. Sure, I could talk about the weather or whatever but I’m just not interested in these trivialities. Like you said, everyone can feel that something is very wrong. It’s always lurking right beneath the surface.
I feel like a religious zealot — I have to get people to see what is going and, much more importantly, *take concrete steps to avoid the impending catastrophe*. Like Word Herder, I want *action*. If that costs me some relationships, then so be it.
Such a great Floyd album and fantastic song. Post Roger Waters era, and David Gilmore is fully in control. Such a strangely underrated musician, Gilmore. His guitar and voice during his prime are so absolutely haunting and unique.
I thought we were going to create a parallel society and just leave those folks alone who have the strange ideas. Maybe I missed a post or two.
On the other hand, I agree that engaging someone over one of their trigger point topics is not beneficial to anyone but finding a concerning issue we have in common could help build a workable relationship (that I'll ignore in my parallel society ; )
BTW I had never heard of The Division Bell album before reading your post. I listened to it online. today. It sounds so damned depressing, I'm sorry it is playing in your head.
Hey, Rob, I just did a complimentary post to this one, and I shared this post on it, too.
Let's rock the boat, eh? ^_^
I want ACTION!
Beautiful. Inspiring post. Thank you. I will do this.
The Dark Side of the Moon.
Agree we definitely need to unite and it’s a difficult problem. I do believe that posing questions is the way to go. It’s no use telling people “facts”. That’s just preachy. But asking questions like “have you seen X?” “Have you noticed X?” are the way to get people asking their own questions. People need to discover things for themselves especially when you are asking them to question things that they’ve probably blindly believed their whole lives.
Also I have the pink vinyl edition of Dark Side of the Moon even though I no longer own a record player. Classic.
Let's keep harping on about the solutions.... xx
Had to listen to it again....
https://youtu.be/eje4IrmSVJI